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[meppi]

Anyways, meppi, do you think the Playstation was better than the Saturn at doing 3D too?

Can't believe I missed answering this question, especially since I remember reading it. :-/
Must have been just before I left for work or something and thought "I'd answer that when I get back".

That's actually very hard to answer.
On paper the PSone appears certainly to be the stronger system when it comes to 3D, although due to the complicated nature of the Saturn it does have a huge amount of horsepower under the hood, which most developers never came close to fully utilizing.

If I remember correctly the Saturn doesn't even use triangles to create 3D graphics, but squares, which made porting games from one system to the next very hard.

Most people will throw in games like Metal Gear Solid and Ridge Racer 4 into the discussion and show that the Saturn never had anything near the graphical output.
Yet when you start looking a bit closer and see Saturn games like

Phychic Killer Tarmoru

, Exhumed, Quake, Sonic R, Radiant Silvergun,Grandia, Virtua Fighter 2, NiGHTS into Dreams, Panzer Dragoon 2, Panzer Dragoon Saga,  Thunderforce V and many others the discussion certainly isn't as one sided as people would like to tell you.

Do I honestly believe the Saturn is more powerful at 3D than the PSone? I really don't know. It certainly is very close, and since both systems have such a different approach in doing things, not only the way the hardware is put together, but also the ease of development, I can't declare a real winner.
I personally do prefer a good looking 3D Saturn game over a PSone one, simply because the PSone had some very nasty side effects with textures and polygons warping and twisting all over the place, which looks awful.

I'm sure if the Saturn had been the nr.1 system in the end, it would have been pushed even further beyond it's limits then how it was.
So again, discussion on this will always be a bit lop sided.


I really have no idea on that Frank Thomas question, but if I would have to guess I'd pick the Mega Drive.

[Bablefish]

Actually no, SNES only and I can't believe no one has gotten this. As it is on every site that even talks about Frank Thomas and his career. In fact on Wikipedia I learned about Big Hurt by Williams it was a pinball game. The game was called Frank Thomas Big Hurt Baseball. 

[Addicted to Chaos]

I can't declare a real winner.

Now that I think about it (well I realized this not too long), the Saturn can so quads, well that's on more angle compared to triangles so that's like a quarter more per polygon VS the Playstation (usually games that were stiaght ports of PS just pinched that on side of the quad to be a rectangle, I think? Therefore copying the PS triangle code, and not making use of the extra angle). Now add that to the Saturn's 200,000 texture-mapped polygons per second, 500,000 flat-shaded polygons per second VS Sony's 180,000 texture-mapped polygons per second, 360,000 flat-shaded polygons per second.

Now also add the fact the the Saturn is capable of running in higher resolution (alot of games do) and capable of having twice as detailed textures (8-bit VS 4-Bit). don't forget to toss in the heavy pallalax that the Saturn is capable of  (those very 3-D backgrounds in Last Bonx are in fact Saturn's muscles in background layers) to all that 3-D power. Also, lower resolution helps the Playstation with the 3-D calculations (not to mention it's RAM problem), and I'm pretty sure there were alot of lower resolution games for that system (and that system no means to hit the Saturns high resolutions)

Then there is the RAM. How is RAM helpfull in 3-D? Well Grandis makes a very good exampe here. Know that first town in that game, the main area (not the Port)? Well in the Playstaton vesion because of lack of RAM, it's split in half, so you have to wait for loading to access the other half of the town. And those textures are not very detailed (detailed texures cost RAM, that's why the Playstion has a switch to dither it's textures) like the Saturns vesion, not to mention the Saturn version almost runs at double the framerate. Now add all those warping polygons into the mix for the Playstation, and viola.

The Saturn is more powerfull because Sony lied about there Playstation's specs, so Sega had to really soup up to those false specs. So when those specs turned out false, the Saturn ended up more powerfull, only too bad not many people could tap it, nor was the Saturn's potential really showcased. For me the fact that Virtua Fighter 3 was completed on Saturn, with the released demo of the Saturn Shenmue is further proof to secure the Saturn's power. Alot of people doubt that Shenmue would of been possible. I don't know why, because on paper it seems very possible, and I haven't seen anything close to that on Playstation.

Now let's mention Ridge Racer 4. Granted it looks nice, with barely any pop-up, but the game was desinged for the PSX (not a port of a very powrfull arcade), hence it carefully avoided pop-up situations. Also there is the matter of speed, the game does not look very fast at all. there is only one really high speed course, and that's a very simple ovel course, which is the only course to hit high speeds. You never see any really fast racers on the PSX. Don't forget the matter of amount of cars too, and ther calculations on top of extra polygons. I don't recall anywhere near the amount of cars that Daytona USA had for the Playstation too. And I had both systems.

Now on to Metal Gear, I own that game (very great game/experience, but I haven't played it since) and that game is not exactly a true 3-d game. It's has an over the top view, and because of that view you can hide alot of 3-D weakness, not to mention that game was very inclosed areas, ie. alot of corridors. The only real 3-D game that I can think of on the PSX that's very impressive is Spyro, and that game seems to have very little detailed textures due to the limited RAM. I'm also guessing it loads on the fly new areas, regardless, the Saturn's double RAM can handle that better.

Bottom line is that the Playstation had alot of build in features that could be turned on with a sitch to help it with it's 3-D weaknesses, while the Saturn needed good software porgrams to do the same (on top of an allready more capable system).

One more thing, I can understand a bad port of a PSX game because of it being difficult to program on Saturn, but why a bad port fot the easier to program, supposedly more powerfull Playsttion?

I don't know what else to mention right now any more, except, where do you get your on paper facts about the system specs? Because wherever I look. I allways see the Saturn's specs blow away the Playstion. It might help me figure out why people think the PSX is better at 3-D, when the specs say otherwise.

[meppi]

It never actually crossed my mind when writing my reply, but indeed the Virtua Fighter 3 port and especially Shenmue for the Saturn were incredible for the time.
Really showed just how much more the Saturn could be pushed it it was given a couple more years.
In the end the games went to the DC and I'm not saying I regret that, but I would have loved to have them on Saturn as well.

[atik]

Wow I had no idea that Virtua Fighter 3 was actually completed for the Saturn, that is so cool. I would love to see how it turned out especially in comparison with the Dreamcast version. If Yu Suzuki and AM2 were involved in it's creation I'm sure it probably rocked.

Man, this game must be like the holy grail of lost Saturn game's. I wonder if we will ever see it.

[Addicted to Chaos]

In the end the games went to the DC and I'm not saying I regret that, but I would have loved to have them on Saturn as well.

Yeah, but because of the Dreamcast the Saturn got alot of nails in the coffin. I would of been happier with the Saturn life extended, then the sequal to Shenmue on the Dreamcast (this way the 3rd one would of stood a much better chance of being made). You see, that's why we never really see any games that really (besides a couple) push the Saturn in it's last year to compare with the Playstation, and why the Playstation seems to be more powerfull. All focus went to the Dreamcast behind the scenes for quite awhile. That's why there were so many rushed games witch needed further dvelopment to look and play better, on top of many cancelled or finished and not released. Quick examples:

- Last Bronx's minor graphical glitching in the character models
- Burning Ranger graphical glitches with dropped multiplayer mode
- Sega Touring Cars framerate that was told to OSSM that it would be fixed, along with other graphical errors/glitching
- Don't get me started on House of Dead

This is just a taste of what I mean. On another note, a game that really pushes the Saturn too, that doesn't get mentioned, is Shining Force Scenario 2-3.

If you play these games, you will see very high resoloution combined with extremly highly detailed textures. In an area in Scenario 2, I was able to place the camera, that floats on top, at a high whach tower, so that it was extremly close to the texture(s). And I couldn't believe how clear the texture still was without any warping too. I mean it didn't look pixelated at all, almost (something you'll never see on a Playstation, not even close).

So yeah, play Shining Force 3, all Scenarios (each Scenario looking better than the other) for the Saturn, and you will see high resolution graphics, steady 30fps, very highly detailed textures (well, Scenario 2-3, Scenario 1 kinda mostly contains shaded textures or not as detailed. the jump from 1-2 is biggest), lighting, transparences, none warping polygons, non-dithered textures, reflections, amazing special effects, and really great choice of colours, as well as being really colourfull and what else I missed.

Oh, and don't bother watching a YouTube video, it just won't do, this game MUST be played by any gamer, even those that don't like any other Shining Force game or strategy games (it feels alot more like an RPG).

Man, this game must be like the holy grail of lost Saturn game's. I wonder if we will ever see it.

Yeah, I'm really hoping that this game really does show up eventually. Thank goodness for a community dedicated to those unreleased or unfinished games.

[Bablefish]

Here's one that should be easy, but can you get them all. Name the games based upon films.

I have a real bit of trivia I like to add about this and that is Waterworld, and this is the truth folks. A Waterworld game was planned for every single console and handheld at the time. I know an issue of Nintendo Power did a feature on it. Naturally the game was pulled after the box office totals came in.

[meppi]

Geesh there are so many! 

But I do remember Waterworld for the Virtual Boy though.

[triverse]

Bablefish has a hard question going this time.  I mean some games like Superman on Atari 2600 are pseudo movie tie-ins (or would those not count, where the game is only pulling parts from a movie and the rest either from comics or some other source of information?).

Anyhow, I am going to throw out there for the movie question:

Halloween (Atari 2600)
Total Recall (NES)
Rocketeer, the (SNES)

[Nreive]

Here's one that should be easy, but can you get them all. Name the games based upon films.

Are we talking computer games as well as console games, because the answer will be veeeeeeeery long.

[Bablefish]

No just consoles, and why hasn't anyone mentioned ET? It's about the most infamous game ever made, not only for how bad it actually is. But for the pure number of copies produced. More than there was 2600 consoles at the time.

[Nreive]

Still so many to mention, but here are some suggestions... Ghostbusters, Ghostbusters II, Alien 3, Predator 2, Back to the Future III, Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi, Robocop 2, Rambo III, Cliffhanger, Mission: Impossible, Goldeneye.  And many more, but I'm not too sure if they appeared on consoles or not.

[Bablefish]

Maybe we should limit this to box office bombs or just plain really bad games based upon films.

[triverse]

Dibs on calling Total Recall for NES!

[meppi]

Last Action Hero for Snes it is then.

[atik]

And don't forget Cliffhanger for the Mega Drive and Snes. Hmmmm I'm beginning to see an Arnold Schwarzenegger/sylvester Stallone action hero pattern here.
I'm sure there must be some game's which they have been associated with which didn't totally suck but just at this moment I really can't think of any.

[Areala]

And don't forget Cliffhanger for the Mega Drive and Snes. Hmmmm I'm beginning to see an Arnold Schwarzenegger/sylvester Stallone action hero pattern here.
I'm sure there must be some game's which they have been associated with which didn't totally suck but just at this moment I really can't think of any.

Well, "T2: The Arcade Game" was pretty darn fun and that was based on an Arnold property.

As for Stallone, the "Rocky" game that was released for the Gamecube, PS2 and Xbox back in 2002 was actually pretty fun.  There was also a Rambo III arcade game that wasn't too bad.

*huggles*
Areala

[atik]

I haven't played T2: The Arcade Game or Rocky but I'm glad you mentioned Rambo 3, Areala. I had completely forgotten about that game. I really liked the Mega Drive game; it looked great and was a lot of fun. I must get around to playing it again sometime.

I guess every Arnold and Stallone game didn't suck after all.